Pope Francis' funeral took place in Rome early Saturday morning and was watched by the entire world — including in New York City where many Catholics embraced the Pope's reforms to the church.
Father James Martin, a Jesuit like Pope Francis, and editor at America Media, the Jesuit Review of Faith and Culture, joined WNYC’s All Things Considered on the eve of the funeral to discuss the Pope’s legacy here and abroad. The interview between Martin and host Sean Carlson has been lightly edited for clarity.\
Sean Carlson: Father Martin, thanks so much for joining us from Rome. What is the mood like there?
Father James Martin: Well, many people have gathered in St. Peter's Basilica to say goodbye to him and, you know, see his body. Right now, people are lining up and still waiting to go onto St. Peter's Basilica and all the TV cameras and screens are set up for the big funeral tomorrow. The crowds are also unbelievable. I've never seen crowds like this in Rome in my entire life.
New York City is incredibly diverse as we know, and its Catholic population is no different. What do you think Pope Francis' legacy was for Catholics in our area?
Catholics in New York will certainly remember, as I do, his visit in 2015. Many of them got to see him up close and listen to his homilies. I think Catholics in New York though are like Catholics everywhere, which is I think they'll miss the man. Right? I think there was a lot of affection for Pope Francis. You've heard him called the “people's pope,” which sounds a little cheesy, but I think is accurate. People may not have known much about his policies or his theology, but they liked him as a person.
Now the head of New York's Archdiocese, Cardinal Timothy Dolan, turned 75 this year, which means he's expected to retire soon. Dolan is fairly conservative. Pope Francis is a reformer. How did they get along and is there any sense of who will replace him?
I would say there was a very warm relationship when Pope Francis visited New York. Cardinal Dolan was his host and I thought was a very gracious host. They may differ on some small things, but they're united in their devotion to Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church. [Dolan] offered his resignation as all archbishops have to do at age 75 and then it's up to the Pope. Pope Francis has died and so even if there was a successor being considered, that would be tabled for a while.
Now you work with a lot of LGBTQ Catholics. I know you discussed some of these issues with the Pope. What are some of the key steps he made as pontiff to embrace this community?
Well, Pope Francis really did more for LGBTQ Catholics than anyone before him. And that's not a knock on St. John Paul or Pope Benedict. It’s just to say he was a different kind of pope. He is the first pope ever to use the word “gay.” He called for the decriminalization of homosexuality. He said that priests under certain circumstances could bless same sex unions, but you know, more to the point, he had gay friends; he appointed an openly gay man to a papal commission; so on and on and on. Some people in New York might say not enough, but I think when they hear some of those changes they have to remember what things looked like, for example, in Sub-Saharan Africa or Eastern Europe. What might seem like tepid over here in New York is white hot elsewhere. So he was taking a big risk and putting his neck out in supporting LGBTQ Catholics.
Now following up on that, what would you like to see the next Pope do in terms of outreach for LGBTQ Catholics?
I would say I'd like to see the next Pope continue the good pastoral outreach that Pope Francis has done to make them feel listened to and heard and welcomed in their own church. And I also think that, from time to time, the church should advocate for them, particularly when they are being harassed or victims of violence.
So for example, I think the church can continue to come out against violence against LGBTQ people. That's not something that changes church teaching, and in fact, is part of church teaching — that we should stand with people who are being victimized.
All those things I think could be steps forward. But basically to continue the good work that Pope Francis has done.
